Pro-Choice desperate for Approval (26 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/8/2002 8:57 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 140)  
 
  388.1  
 
From:  The Pro-Life Infonet www.prolifeinfo.org
Reply-To:  Steven Ertelt infonet@prolifeinfo.org


CLINGING TO APPROVAL

No one loves abortion, but everyone yearns for approval.  It is the
insatiable desire for social approval which drives some post-abortive
women and men to battle for abortion rights.  They will never be content
with merely legal access to abortion.  What they long for is universal
approval of abortion.

By immersing themselves in the political fight over abortion,
post-abortive women and men are satisfying several psychological needs.
First, they are surrounding themselves with like-minded activists who
reinforce the rightness of their decision.  Second, each time they see
other women choose abortion, they experience it as a reaffirmation their
own decision.(6)  Third, they are diverting negative internal feelings
into outward expressions of righteous anger.

As Magda Denes, a post-abortive woman and pro-choice psychologist, has
observed, it is easier for a post-abortive woman to "regard oneself as a
martyr and to battle the world" of anti-abortion enemies than to confront
the "private sorrows" and the "heartache of self-chosen destiny" which are
inherent to the abortion experience.(7)  In the heat of battle with an
outside force, one can avoid examining one's own self-inflicted wounds.

This is why Michelman honestly does not understand how abortion today is
STILL causing women so much pain and grief.  Blinded by the "benediction"
she received in the form of Roe v. Wade, she honestly believes that the
shame and loss that is inherent to abortion can be wiped away by social
approval.  She wants to believe it.  She needs to believe it.

The truth, however, is that social acceptance of abortion can never
sanitize what is inescapably a life-destroying experience.  As Denes
rightly realizes, even if every critic of abortion was silenced, even if
every person on earth approved of abortion as a pragmatic necessity, the
"private sorrows" would still remain.

In the end, self-worth that is rooted merely in social acceptance will
fail.  The only firm foundation for our human dignity lies in the fact
that we are children of God. Even when we fail, our one certain hope is
that God will never turn away a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34).  He
loves us.  And when we cast aside the straw of our excuses, and lift up
the gold of Christ's sacrifice, He will heal us and restore our joy.

There are many former abortion advocates like Carol Everett, Norma
McCorvey, Dr. Beverly McMillan, and Dr. Tony Levatino who became
"converts" to the pro-life cause because they experienced the love of
pro-lifers.  This should remind us that those who are most outspoken in
defense of Roe v. Wade are really crying out for acceptance.  If we are to
convert a nation, we must, as ambassadors of Christ's mercy and love,
accept and embrace them.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  123four   5/11/2002 10:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 140)  
 
  388.2 in reply to 388.1  
 
Amen. Just want to add that nothing but the blood of Jesus can cure a sin sick soul. All the acceptance of sin in the whole world will do nothing to relieve the pain of knowing they have killed their own child. 
  
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  From:  The Usotsuki (dosius)   5/14/2002 1:48 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 140)  
 
  388.3 in reply to 388.1  
 
Abortion is murder. 
Birth control is murder. 

Murder is a sin against the living God. 

How much simpler can it get?



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Edited 4/14/2003 10:55:05 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Cave Wolfie (IRISHWOLF73)    5/14/2002 11:13 pm  
To:  The Usotsuki (dosius)   (4 of 140)  
 
  388.4 in reply to 388.3  
 
How is birth control murder?  Birth control is not killing anything.

 




That "Love Thy Neighbor" Thing.......I meant that-God  

 

<
 
  
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  From:  The Usotsuki (dosius)   5/15/2002 11:16 am  
To:  Cave Wolfie (IRISHWOLF73)    (5 of 140)  
 
  388.5 in reply to 388.4  
 
Birth control is done after the act, and usually works by triggering an abortion. 

<sig removed>



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Edited 4/14/2003 10:57:19 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/15/2002 11:24 am  
To:  Cave Wolfie (IRISHWOLF73)    (6 of 140)  
 
  388.6 in reply to 388.4  
 
Hi Cave Wolfie,

 

He is confirming that some contraceptive devices allow conception to take place then deny the baby life needed support therefore killing the baby at a very early stage.

 

However, this topic is not about contraception it is about  people who support Abortion and their desperate need for approval of their wrong actions, including their desperate desire to live in denial that they are actually killing the innocent life of a human baby.

 

If anyone would like to discuss other Pro-Life topics please go to the appropriate thread or start a new topic.

 

I really want this topic to stay on track because it is a common tactic of the (pro-choice/pro-death) Abortionists to blame shift and to talk about anything and everything except their own personal accountability in the murder of an innocent life.

 

Thanks,

God Bless you,

David

 



David A. Brown
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  From:  Cave Wolfie (IRISHWOLF73)    5/15/2002 12:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 140)  
 
  388.7 in reply to 388.6  
 
I consider myself to be both pro-life and pro-choice (which I'm sure will not be a very popular stance here)....I feel abortion is a bad idea (having had one myself not too long ago, before coming back to Christ, and still recovering from the emotional effects)...but I still feel it should be legal, and left up to the woman to decide.

 

 




That "Love Thy Neighbor" Thing.......I meant that-God  

 

<
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/16/2002 12:30 am  
To:  Cave Wolfie (IRISHWOLF73)    (8 of 140)  
 
  388.8 in reply to 388.7  
 
Hi Cave Wolfie,

 

Thanks for your openness.

 

I think where we differ is that I believe that Life should be left up to God.

 

Children are a gift from God a reward and even though the timing might seem inappropriate to us God knows exactly what he is doing in creating each new life.

 

Glad to hear that you are again close to Jesus. Keep us informed on how your walk is going and I look forward to some encouragement in Jesus from you.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  mamajo1    6/2/2002 9:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 140)  
 
  388.9 in reply to 388.1  
 
Are YOU in a position to decide the reproductive fate of every woman on earth?  If so, please post your credentials.  Thousands of people are waiting with baited breath to view them. 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/2/2002 11:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (10 of 140)  
 
  388.10 in reply to 388.1  
 
I have never had an abortion, and am pro choice.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/2/2002 11:15 pm  
To:  The Usotsuki (dosius) unread  (11 of 140)  
 
  388.11 in reply to 388.5  
 
**Birth control is done after the act, and usually works by triggering an abortion.** 
Have you never heard of the little rubber thingy that men can stick on the end of their 'willy' called a Condom? It is the single most used form of birth-control.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Anyone but Bush 2004 (sadieloo74)    6/3/2002 7:38 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 140)  
 
  388.12 in reply to 388.8  
 
"Children are a gift from God "

No they're not, they're the result of having a mans sperm joining with an egg. Are puppies a 'gift from god' too? Mosquito eggs?

Sheesh.

 

Member in Good Sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Barbie-Deprived Division


Are you a ho? Find out @ She's Crafty 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/3/2002 9:22 am  
To:  Anyone but Bush 2004 (sadieloo74)    (13 of 140)  
 
  388.13 in reply to 388.12  
 
Hi Rad Grad,

 

All life is a gift from God. Human life is different from animal life in that we are Created in the Image of God meaning that we can interact with God on a personal, emotional and Spiritual level, something that we cannot do with puppies or mosquitoes this separates us and makes us unique from puppies and mosquitoes.

 

Interestingly the Bible tells us that it is Gods plan for a man and a woman to become one and that is exactly what you just described in your post with the sperm (seed) of the man and the egg of the woman joining and becoming one new unique individual person.

 

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave (stay with) unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

 

Most important Rad Grad you are a gift from God! Life is gift from God and it is important, you are important!

 

Thanks for posting.

Have a Wonderful Day :o),

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Anyone but Bush 2004 (sadieloo74)    6/3/2002 9:36 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 140)  
 
  388.14 in reply to 388.13  
 
So, what do you tell people who cannot concieve?

I guess God does not like them?

 

Member in Good Sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Barbie-Deprived Division


Are you a ho? Find out @ She's Crafty 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/3/2002 9:47 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (15 of 140)  
 
  388.15 in reply to 388.11  
 
Hi Ravenotani,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

A condom does offer some birth-control and even less disease-control but a condom can not and does not offer any protection for a persons Soul.

 

In the sexual act you are sill uncovering yourself and you are still giving yourself to another and apart from the intimacy of marriage a condom cannot offer any protection for this.

 

I only mention this because it sounds like in your post that you are offering a condom as foolproof resource.

 

God Bless you,

David 

P.S. To Rad Grag,


 

The inability of some people to conceive is a result of the sin nature of humans and not punishment of God. It is inappropriate to blame God for what sin causes.

 

And you are making a good point that because not everyone can conceive that Adoption is even more necessary and Abortion is even all the more cruel and unnecessary.

 

David


 

David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



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Edited 6/5/2002 1:08:37 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/4/2002 2:50 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 140)  
 
  388.16 in reply to 388.15  
 
I know full well that there is no form of pregnancy prevention which is 100%. That is why I am pro-choice. 
I mentioned Condoms because it was mentioned, by someone who obviously needs to learn more about birth control, that all forms of contraception involve eliminating the combination of sperm+egg once they have joined. Condoms work by preventing the spern from reaching the egg, as do several other methods of birth control.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/4/2002 9:59 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (17 of 140)  
 
  388.17 in reply to 388.16  
 
You, consider killing an innocent human baby an acceptable solution. Why?

 

Isnt it drastic, isnt it mean, isnt it cruel.

 

Of course it is! 

 

You are attempting to wrap cruel behavior into nice verbiage pro-choice your Propaganda doesnt work for everyone. Murder is Murder!

 

And I really mean Propaganda, because you are over here trying to spread you propaganda about how others need an education. You are the one who needs an education an education in decadence and humanity.

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/4/2002 2:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (18 of 140)  
 
  388.18 in reply to 388.17  
 
Abortion doesn't kill a human being any more than amputation does.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  kfander    6/4/2002 5:28 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (19 of 140)  
 
  388.19 in reply to 388.16  
 
>> I know full well that there is no form of pregnancy prevention which is 100%. That is why I am pro-choice. <<

How is that different than saying that I know full well that deed restrictions cannot prevent people who I don't like from moving into my neighborhood. That is why I am pro-killing.

It solves a problem, but at what expense? Or, should I say, at whose expense?
 
  
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   From:  Kowgal   6/4/2002 7:53 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (20 of 140)  
 
  388.20 in reply to 388.18  
 
Amputations are painful for a long time. Would you like your arm cut off for the heck of it? Then we can compare abortion and amputations. I doubt you would have the same outlook on either.  
  
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From:  123four   6/5/2002 3:41 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (21 of 140)  
 
  388.21 in reply to 388.18  
 
There is no comparison to amputation of a person's leg and the 
taking of a person's life. They are two very different things. One is 
still alive, although missing a part of a limb. The other one has been denied his life, that is, it has been taken from him/her without their consent. 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/5/2002 6:15 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (22 of 140)  
 
  388.22 in reply to 388.18  
 
***Abortion doesn't kill a human being any more than amputation does.***

and just how stupid and tramatic would it be to volunteer to amputate a perfectly good arm?  When you abort a baby, you are not only killing an arm, you are killing a whole human being... if you have ever seen a picture of a baby at the age of 8-10 weeks gestation, the time when most abortions are performed, you would see two little legs and two little arms and a perfectly formed head... this is a child you are killing... Jeremiah 1:5, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God has already planned a persons life before they are ever even formed.... 




 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 9:20 am  
To:  Watchman77    (23 of 140)  
 
  388.23 in reply to 388.22  
 
The fetus lacks a functioning brain until at leadt the 24th week. If it doesn't have a brain it's no more a complete individual than one of my fingers. 
I would like to compliment everyone who pointed out amputation isn't necesarily a good thing for their ability to miss the point. Thanks for reminding me not to underestimate human stupidity.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 9:39 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (24 of 140)  
 
  388.24 in reply to 388.18  
 
Hi,

 

I realize that the concept that you are trying to promote is that a baby is nothing more than an extension of the Mothers body and therefore it is an amputation. This is a common pro-choice/pro-death argument and usually the baby is referred to as a parasite that is unwanted and therefore needs to be gotten rid of. Also it is common in the pro-death cause to refer to an abortion as to like getting a haircut.

 

It is yet another attempt to describe the killing of an innocent baby in desirable terms. 

 

The problem with this stance is that it is untrue. An amputation is the removal of various parts of our own body a person could amputate a limb or a finger and it wouldnt be illegal. It isnt uncommon in certain illegal groups like gangs and mafias to have a person amputate or cut off one of their own fingers as a supposed  act of  bravery. You can willingly although not advisably cut off one of your own fingers, why because it belongs to you it is your own DNA. You cannot however cut off the finger of another person, this is called an assault, an attack, why because you are damaging the DNA property of another person.

 

A baby is its own person at the moment of conception the baby has its own unique DNA and is therefore not an extension of the Mother but its own unique precious life. Therefore the baby is entitled to its own rights and own protection any intrusion into the DNA of the baby is an attack on the baby every bit as much as an attack on another person.

 

Further I really think that the Pro-Choice/Pro-Death group is even further discrediting themselves with the general public by these outrageous and even silly claims as to what an abortion is about. The more people find out what the true claims and intentions are of the Pro-Choice/Pro-Death the more Pro-Life the public is becoming.

 

All the Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



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Edited 6/5/2002 1:15:38 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 9:57 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (25 of 140)  
 
  388.25 in reply to 388.23  
 
Hi,

 

I would like to know what your stance is on Life i.e. physical life DNA.

 

Because what you are now really discussing is a Quality of life Issue and not really a its not alive so we are not killing it issue. You are saying that there is life it just that the quality of the life of the baby does not match the standards that you approve of and there fore its ok to kill the poor thing. This quality of life is the same concept that is being used in euthanasia  assisted suicide and it is the same argument that is being used in every genocide throughout the world, that society would be better if that person or group didnt exist.

 

By your mentioning that a baby does not have a complete brain until 24 weeks of age does this mean that you consider an abortion after 24 weeks to be a murder? Because according to your data the baby has a developed brain.

 

And by the way Insulting those who you came to debate only reveals that you are loosing the debate.

 

All the Best to you,

David 



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 10:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 140)  
 
  388.26 in reply to 388.25  
 
Again you miss the point. What I am saying is that a fetus isn't a baby. 
If it doesn't have a brain it can't be an individual human being. 

If it isn't a human being it doesn't deserve any more protection than the cow that was killed for the hamburger I ate last night.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 10:11 am  
To:  Anyone but Bush 2004 (sadieloo74)   unread  (27 of 140)  
 
  388.27 in reply to 388.14  
 
Hi Rad Grad,

 

The inability of some people to conceive is a result of the sin nature of humans and not punishment of God. It is inappropriate to blame God for what sin causes.

 

And you are making a good point that because not everyone can conceive that Adoption is even more necessary and Abortion is even all the more cruel and unnecessary.

 

All the Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 10:20 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (28 of 140)  
 
  388.28 in reply to 388.26  
 
The cow that you ate for dinner last night wasnt created in the image of God as you are and as babies in the womb are.

 

I doubt that you would eat a baby for dinner.

 

 

All the Best to you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 10:22 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (29 of 140)  
 
  388.29 in reply to 388.28  
 
Are you being deliberately dense? 
My point is a fetus is no more a human person than a cow is.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 10:44 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (30 of 140)  
 
  388.30 in reply to 388.26  
 
According to the Bible our spirit and our soul are the real life of us and that our physical bodies are a how we physically express the thoughts and emotions of our spirit and our soul.

 

To judge human life as simply physical is wrong because inanimate objects do not think feel or have emotions but people do including babies in the womb.

 

There are several graphic Pro-Life films that show an actual abortion taking place via ultrasound and in those films the baby in the womb can be seen backing away from the tools and instruments that the abortionist inserts into the woman to kill the baby with. Even in the womb the little babies realize that they are in danger and attempt to seek safety, why? Because they have a spirit and a soul, they have an awareness of who they are and of their surroundings. They recognize that they are in danger despite their physical appearance and development and they take appropriate action to attempt to save themselves.

 

Really in an abortion only the body is killed but the spirit and soul of the baby live, as with any other human when the body dies the spirit and soul do not die with the body.

 

James 2:26 For the body without the spirit is dead.. It is the human spirit that God gives first then the physical body comes next. To kill a baby even in the womb is to kill a living soul & spirit person.

 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (alive) in the Spirit:

 

All the Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2002 10:54 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (31 of 140)  
 
  388.31 in reply to 388.29  
 
If a fetus in the womb is no more a human than a cow is than why dont you eat a fetus for dinner.

 

Of course you or anyone else wouldnt think of eating a fetus because you would be eating a human and not an animal and there is a big difference between humans and animals even in the womb.

 

All the Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 11:19 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (32 of 140)  
 
  388.32 in reply to 388.31  
 
Animal: 
NOUN: 1. A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure. 
Humans ARE animals, if you deny that you deny an important and vital part of yourself. Humans are unique amoung animals, but still animals. 

I claim rulership over my own body and see nothing wrong with that. That which can't think is not a person. A fetus can't think. A fetus is not a person. Why should any woman be forced to act as lifesupport for a nonperson? 

Do you think a woman is somehow less than a fetus?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   6/5/2002 11:39 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (33 of 140)  
 
  388.33 in reply to 388.32  
 
Hi That I AM... 

I am sorry you feel no affection for the human life that is contained in a woman's body. You may argue all you wish that a baby is a parasite blah, blah blah....you're hurting your own very being, your precious value as a female, a giver of life, ( not taker of life) as well as destroying a safe haven every unborn human, male or female was created to be nutured/sustained in. 

Amazing though, female animals (non human variety) never abort their unborn offspring...they accept conception of life as the natural order of creation. Emulating animals accepting their unborn offspring, is something we 'unique' humans might do well to practice. 

Linda 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 11:44 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (34 of 140)  
 
  388.34 in reply to 388.33  
 
**you're hurting your own very being, your precious value as a female, a giver of life, ( not taker of life)** 
I am a person, not a womb. 
My value lays not in the fact that I am a fertile woman, but in the fact that I am a person. I do not need to reproduce to give my life meaning, do you?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   6/5/2002 12:16 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (35 of 140)  
 
  388.35 in reply to 388.34  
 

Hi: 
No you do not need to "reproduce" to find meaning in life....as if reproduction was all there is for a woman to do..nonsense!! but bearing life is a precious experience. You are a female person who has a womb and that womb (if conception occurs) was put there to sustain a future life.( it serves no other purpose ) 

If a woman's body accepts a conception the healthiest thing for a woman to do is LET her body work and finish what it was designed/created to do well so well. Motherhood is not for all women and will not happen for all women but if a conception occurs then a woman's nature (being female) will do everything to accomodate, by the process of nature itself, the baby's growth to completion. It's not healthy to muddle with what nature designed. Spiritually,emotionally,physically... Abortion hurts a women, devalues her femaleness, scars her reproductive system and ends the life of the baby who depended on her to survive....it's a cruel and sad outcome for both mother and baby. 

Linda 


You seem to have a dislike of being female, as if it were a curse to be fertile. I know, men have abused women and treated them as "breeders" doesn't make them right and certainly you shouldn't be influenced by what a man thinks of your reproductive self BUT what you think of yourself as. You are valuable as a woman and sometimes that value includes bearing future humans. 

linda 

 
  
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  From:  kfander    6/5/2002 12:33 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (36 of 140)  
 
  388.36 in reply to 388.32  
 
>> That which can't think is not a person. A fetus can't think. A fetus is not a person <<

Do you have any other arguments?  Because however often you repeat that one, it's just not going anywhere.
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 12:51 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (37 of 140)  
 
  388.37 in reply to 388.35  
 
I like being female. I don't consider my reproductive anatomy to be a major part of my self identity. Nor do I like the bullshit ideal of the 'feminine' woman, or the 'masculine' man. 
**If a woman's body accepts a conception the healthiest thing for a woman to do is LET her body work and finish what it was designed/created to do well so well.** 

On the contrary. There are several women who die trying to cary a pregnancy to term. Others end up suffering health complications which would have been prevented had the fetus been removed.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 12:53 pm  
To:  kfander    (38 of 140)  
 
  388.38 in reply to 388.36  
 
**Do you have any other arguments? Because however often you repeat that one, it's just not going anywhere.** 
Yes, but I don't need them. A fetus is not a person, it lacks the ability to think for itself. 

I would not consider anyone obliged to let a confirmed person use my body as life support. Why should I force them to do so for a nonperson?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/5/2002 1:01 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (39 of 140)  
 
  388.39 in reply to 388.38  
 
What I don't understand is how you think that a fetus isn't a human life. Exactly when does life begin? There are cultures that consider your birthday to be the day you were conceived. Just how do you know when a fetus thinks for itself? How do you know they don't feel pain? Can you remember back that far?  
  
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   From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 1:29 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (40 of 140)  
 
  388.40 in reply to 388.39  
 
I can't remember being a fetus, which certainly isn't even indirect evidence of fetal personhood. 
Have you ever heard of a brainwave scan? They have shown a fetus doesn't produce brainwaves until somewhere after the 20th week of pregnancy. No brain = no ability to feel pain.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   6/5/2002 1:33 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (41 of 140)  
 
  388.41 in reply to 388.37  
 
Hi: 
Well if you wish to persist in myths there is no stopping you from that. Modern childbirth is very safe and very few women die from complications. Years ago when women did die more often from complications, it was often because of the unsanitary and unnatural, man made environement they gave birth in. 
I won't argue with your basic philoophy of life, it is yours to have and hold. If you support abortion that's your choice but if you become an expectant mother you'll have to make a choice for two... like it or not, that is what abortion boils down to....does the baby get to live or not? 

Don't agree with you gender is just B/S...I guess nature has that all messed up in design and function too, eh? Darwin run amok or what? Well, reconstruct original designs to your heart's content if you choose to, just don't whine to anybody but yourself, about the self made results. 

Linda 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/5/2002 5:21:50 PM ET by HopeFloats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 2:06 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (42 of 140)  
 
  Featured Message 388.42 in reply to 388.41  
 
It's not gender which I consider B.S. It's society forcing people into specific roles simply because of their gender to which I object.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   6/5/2002 2:43 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (43 of 140)  
 
  388.43 in reply to 388.42  
 
Hi: 

Okay that sounds good, not forcing anyone to become something they don't want to be ...but how then is abortion a victimless action to a baby?..the baby is forced to be nothing at all and certainly to become nothing was not of it's own choosing. 

Nobody in good conscience would want any woman to be forced to concieve, forced to mother...we were not created to be either brood mares or sex objects etc. etc. but my friend abortion won't solve people thinking and acting like that...abortion takes an innocent life, it doesn't solve errant behavior. You won't stop men from behaving badly towards women by aborting a child. 

Take care, 
Linda 


 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/5/2002 3:09 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (44 of 140)  
 
  388.44 in reply to 388.40  
 
You and I can agree that at some point there is a living human produced when a woman is pregnant, right? Your argument is that if it's "gotten rid" of early enough that it wasn't really a person right? So when does it become a person? What makes it a person? The ability to think? What about those who have brain damage or other retardation that makes them have diminished brain waves? Are they no longer human? Even if you don't see that a fetus is a human as soon as it's concieved you have to see that potential for a new human life is there. Can you start a human life any other way? Can a person who has died be brought back? There is something else to humans that makes us have life and thoughts. So even getting rid of the potential for life and thought is killing something.  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/5/2002 3:13 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (45 of 140)  
 
  388.45 in reply to 388.23  
 
***I would like to compliment everyone who pointed out amputation isn't necesarily a good thing for their ability to miss the point. Thanks for reminding me not to underestimate human stupidity.***

and I would like to point out the stupidity of comparing an arm with the life of an unborn baby... you can continue to live without an arm, but once a baby is aborted it is dead...




 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/5/2002 3:16 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (46 of 140)  
 
  388.46 in reply to 388.24  
 
amen and amen!



 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/5/2002 3:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (47 of 140)  
 
  388.47 in reply to 388.25  
 
and amen again!



 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/5/2002 3:30 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (48 of 140)  
 
  388.48 in reply to 388.26  
 
well since you obviously don't care what God has to say about it, then you should atleast accept medical science... with the new ultra sound machine that shows the "fetus" in 3D it makes it a little bit harder to deny it is a human being



 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 6:26 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (49 of 140)  
 
  388.49 in reply to 388.43  
 
A fetus is not a baby. It has no rights, particularily not the right to use my body as a life support machine. 
**Nobody in good conscience would want any woman to be forced to concieve, forced to mother...** 

Unfortunately there are people who think that way. I seem to recall something about one of them starting his own forum here on Delphi.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 6:30 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (50 of 140)  
 
  388.50 in reply to 388.44  
 
**You and I can agree that at some point there is a living human produced when a woman is pregnant, right?** 
Not always. There are many pregnancies which end in a spontaneus abortion, as well as medically induced ones. 
**Your argument is that if it's "gotten rid" of early enough that it wasn't really a person right? So when does it become a person? What makes it a person? The ability to think?** 
I actually believe it doesn't really become a unique individual until after birth. Before that it lacks sufficient ability to be aware of the world. 

**What about those who have brain damage or other retardation that makes them have diminished brain waves? Are they no longer human?** 
They still have brain waves, just fewer of them. If there are no brain waves the person is considered dead. 

**Even if you don't see that a fetus is a human as soon as it's concieved you have to see that potential for a new human life is there. Can you start a human life any other way? Can a person who has died be brought back? There is something else to humans that makes us have life and thoughts. So even getting rid of the potential for life and thought is killing something.** 
Every sperm, every ova has the potential to become a new life. By your arguement every time a woman has a period she is commiting murder. Potential is not actuality.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 6:31 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (51 of 140)  
 
  388.51 in reply to 388.45  
 
** 

***I would like to compliment everyone who pointed out amputation isn't necesarily a good thing for their ability to miss the point. Thanks for reminding me not to underestimate human stupidity.*** 
and I would like to point out the stupidity of comparing an arm with the life of an unborn baby... you can continue to live without an arm, but once a baby is aborted it is dead...** 

The amputated arm dies as well. It is human. But it's not murder. Neither is abortion.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   6/5/2002 7:04 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (52 of 140)  
 
  388.52 in reply to 388.49  
 

That I Am, 

It's sad you believe that a baby is not a baby until sometime after it breaths air. How do you reconcile a baby having no rights to live but you yourself do? If you couldn't protect yourself from a predator do you deserve to die by his hand...is your belief survival of the strongest...does death by might make it okay? 
If you won't protect a baby, which your own body created, who will you protect? 

I hope your heart softens to the weak,defenseless, dependent, it's a nasty world out there when it's every human out for for themselves only. 

Linda 


 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/5/2002 7:15 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (53 of 140)  
 
  388.53 in reply to 388.52  
 
I support the rights of persons, not tissues.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/5/2002 9:16 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (54 of 140)  
 
  388.54 in reply to 388.50  
 
Usually the body only naturally aborts if something isn't right. 
How much have you been around new-borns? I have alot of friends right now having babies and have even heard stories of things in ultra-sounds that define those babies as very definate individuals. Actually I knew my daughter was going to be a firecracker from the first ultra-sound. She refused to show her face. Just her butt. From that moment on I knew what I was in for. I have pictures of her playing with her toes and sucking her thumb. I would say that she definatly was an unique individual from day one. 

Every sperm and ova have potential, but only if they are combined in the right conditions. But that is just my point. You can not take your ova and decided you are going to make a life. It has to be those conditions. It's really nothing short of a miracle. 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/6/2002 3:23 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (55 of 140)  
 
  388.55 in reply to 388.51  
 
***The amputated arm dies as well. It is human. But it's not murder. Neither is abortion.***

I pity you that the life of a baby is no more important to you than a severed arm... it is a heartless thing to have no more regard for a precious little baby than what you have... how can you look at a child in the arms of it's mother and believe that it is alright to kill it in the womb...

I pray that some day before it is to late that you wake up and see how wrong you are about the unborn...




 Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/6/2002 3:12 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (56 of 140)  
 
  388.56 in reply to 388.55  
 
I would go to great lengths to protect a baby. But I don't give a damn what happens to a fetus.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/6/2002 3:21 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (57 of 140)  
 
  388.57 in reply to 388.56  
 
***I would go to great lengths to protect a baby. But I don't give a damn what happens to a fetus.***

one day you will learn they are one and the same...

             

point cursor at doves beak to see what she has to say


Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/6/2002 3:35 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (58 of 140)  
 
  388.58 in reply to 388.57  
 
I will never learn they are one and the same because they aren't. Especially if all anti-abortion people tell me is 'it is a baby' without any decent evidence.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/6/2002 5:45 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (59 of 140)  
 
  388.59 in reply to 388.58  
 
What is your evidence that it is not? I still stand by the argument that killing potential life is the same as killing a life. So even if you don't think it's really a life it's still killing.  
  
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   From:  kfander    6/6/2002 7:08 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (60 of 140)  
 
  388.60 in reply to 388.59  
 
>> So even if you don't think it's really a life it's still killing <<

Throughout history, the worst of humanity has sought to dehumanize that which they wish to eliminate.

In the history of the United States, there were those who did this to blacks. 
Serial killers often do this to their victims. 
The Nazis did this to the Jews. 
To an extent, we do this in times of war, referring to the enemy as "Japs," "Krauts," "Gooks," or another name that does not admit to the shared humanity of our enemy.
 
  
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From:  Kowgal   6/6/2002 7:20 pm  
To:  kfander    (61 of 140)  
 
  388.61 in reply to 388.60  
 
Exactly my point. If you can convince yourself that it isn't really a baby then the word murder doesn't apply. It's simply amputation of an unwanted limb.  
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/6/2002 11:36 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (62 of 140)  
 
  388.62 in reply to 388.59  
 
If a woman is forced to gestate it's slavery. I'll go with objecting to what is a proven wrong rather than an unproven wrong.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 5:37 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (63 of 140)  
 
  388.63 in reply to 388.62  
 
The woman was not forced to have sex. So no one but herself made her any kind of slave. In the Bible there was a class of people called a bond servant. These were slaves that had worked off their debt, but because of the loyalty and love they felt for their boss they rejected freedom and became a servant for life. It was a very noble and respected decision. And motherhood is much like that. I owe no one anything, but because of the love that I have for my child I would put myself second and always do what is best for her. So I guess if you want to call me a slave then I'm honored. 
And by whose standard is what proven wrong? Until Roe vs. Wade abortion was legally wrong. Would you have been against it then? 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 5:55 am  
To:  Kowgal   (64 of 140)  
 
  388.64 in reply to 388.63  
 
**The woman was not forced to have sex. So no one but herself made her any kind of slave.** 
I do not have sex to get pregnant, I have sex because I enjoy it. And what about rape? 
**In the Bible there was a class of people called a bond servant. These were slaves that had worked off their debt, but because of the loyalty and love they felt for their boss they rejected freedom and became a servant for life. It was a very noble and respected decision.** 
In many of those cases the servant had nowhere else to go. Up until recently, and still in some parts of the world, many people don't have the means to eat properly. 

**And motherhood is much like that. I owe no one anything, but because of the love that I have for my child I would put myself second and always do what is best for her. So I guess if you want to call me a slave then I'm honored.** 
That's good. You chose to be a mother and weren't forced into it. That's the way it should be. What I object to isn't voluntary motherhood, it is forced gestation. 

**And by whose standard is what proven wrong? Until Roe vs. Wade abortion was legally wrong. Would you have been against it then?** 
It is proven wrong by the standards of anyone who feels a woman deserves the right to bodily autonomy. 
I don't live in the states, so a ruling by an american court has no bearing on me. 
And yes, I would support legalising abortion if it was considered criminal here. 

I am not Pro-choice because abortion is legal.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 6:08 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (65 of 140)  
 
  388.65 in reply to 388.64  
 
A very small percentage of abortions are because of rape so that is just an excuse. Same with health risks. 
The class of people that I am talking about chose their servanthood willingly and with pride. 

I'll tell you something. My pregnancy was not planned. In fact, it came at the worst time. I was having some major health problems and was told that I wouldn't have a normal child anyway (birth defects) so for my health I should have an abortion. I thought about it, but it just didn't work for me. I had every excuse in the book. No one would have blamed me. And I can't say that I don't wonder sometimes what my life would be like if I never had my daughter. But I took responsibilty for having made the mistake of making a baby when I wasn't ready. The older she gets the more I realize that my life wouldn't be complete without her. I had lots of options other than abortion. I had family members who wanted to take care of her until I was able. I had family members who wanted to adopt her. I chose to stick it out and keep my baby through all the small apartments, lonely nights, and bills. I wouldn't go back and change a thing. I've never heard a parent regret keeping a child, but I've heard many regret giving them up. 

P.S. My daughter is a very healthy six-year-old. Not a birth defect to be found. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/7/2002 9:11:23 AM ET by Kowgal 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 6:10 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (66 of 140)  
 
  388.66 in reply to 388.64  
 
Have you ever heard the expression that your right to hit me in the nose ends at the begining of my nose? Your right to your body ends where mine begins. So a mother's rights should end where her child's starts.  
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 6:43 am  
To:  Kowgal   (67 of 140)  
 
  388.67 in reply to 388.66  
 
**Your right to your body ends where mine begins. So a mother's rights should end where her child's starts.** 
So a fetus's right to it's body ends where it takes resources and space in an unwilling woman's body. It is not a child until it is born.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 6:50 am  
To:  Kowgal   (68 of 140)  
 
  388.68 in reply to 388.65  
 
**A very small percentage of abortions are because of rape so that is just an excuse. Same with health risks.** 
It still hapens, unfortunately. To pretend that it doesn't is willfull ignorance. Does you opinion about the morality of abortion differ under either of these circumstances? 
**And I can't say that I don't wonder sometimes what my life would be like if I never had my daughter.** 
You would be truly unusual if you never wondered that. There are many choices we have made which we wonder about later. I am glad that you are happy with your decision, I truly am. I am also glad you had as many options as you did, a lot of women don't. 

**I've never heard a parent regret keeping a child, but I've heard many regret giving them up.** 
I know several women who regreted having a child before they were ready. Most often it is not because they don't love their child(ren) but because they regret what they had to give up.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 8:45 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (69 of 140)  
 
  388.69 in reply to 388.68  
 
So would it be ok with you if they made it illegal to have an abortion except in rape or risk of mother's health situations? I can't say that I would agree with that, but it's a compromise I think could be made. Like I said, that is a very small percentage of abortions. Not a reason to make it legal or morally right for all situations. 
As for my options. On one hand, at the time I felt like I didn't have many. And actually I didn't. I couldn't give my daughter to someone else to raise even if I could take her back when I was ready. It was more than not giving my child away. It was the responsiblity I felt for that life. I'm responsible for how she grows-up. I have a job and even if I give that job to someone else I still have to think about what is best for my child. 

That is what is wrong with "women's rights". It has gotten to the point that women feel they gave something up when they have children. I'm a stay at home mom. I dealt with guilt for not working so we could afford better things. I dealt with loneliness at being stuck at home because we only had one car. (My husband is military and is gone alot also) I dealt with guilt knowing that my husband joined the military to take care of my child and I. I deal with guilt on a daily basis. We all do. And the kicker of it all is that; we do it to ourselves. It wasn't until I joined a church that encourages women to stay at home with their children and to put their children's well being first that I started to feel better about myself. I made a choice to stay home with my child. I am not lazy. I am not dumb. I spent many a lonely night thinking about what could have been. I made my choices and although they might not have been the right ones, I am a happy woman. 

It all comes down to accepting your choices. Some women choose to have sex unprotected when they are not ready to have a child. That wasn't the right choice, but abortion is not an answer. It doesn't make it all go away. 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 8:47 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (70 of 140)  
 
  388.70 in reply to 388.68  
 
Where do you think babies come from? (stupid question, but I mean really) When do babies become human? When are they a person? If I had had an abortion would some other person given birth to a person just like my daughter?  
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 9:20 am  
To:  Kowgal   (71 of 140)  
 
  388.71 in reply to 388.69  
 
**So would it be ok with you if they made it illegal to have an abortion except in rape or risk of mother's health situations? I can't say that I would agree with that, but it's a compromise I think could be made. Like I said, that is a very small percentage of abortions. Not a reason to make it legal or morally right for all situations.** 
Nope, I think abortion should be legel whenever a pregnant woman wants one. Although I would accept a law limiting abortions past a certain point in the pregnancy. 

**That is what is wrong with "women's rights". It has gotten to the point that women feel they gave something up when they have children. I'm a stay at home mom. I dealt with guilt for not working so we could afford better things. I dealt with loneliness at being stuck at home because we only had one car. (My husband is military and is gone alot also) I dealt with guilt knowing that my husband joined the military to take care of my child and I. I deal with guilt on a daily basis. We all do. And the kicker of it all is that; we do it to ourselves. It wasn't until I joined a church that encourages women to stay at home with their children and to put their children's well being first that I started to feel better about myself. I made a choice to stay home with my child. I am not lazy. I am not dumb. I spent many a lonely night thinking about what could have been. I made my choices and although they might not have been the right ones, I am a happy woman.** 

Whenever we chose one path we give up whatever lay along the other paths we could have taken. That's life. You decided that carrying to term and looking after your child was the best path for you. 
In my opinion if you don't expect to give up certain things when you have children you're being unrealistic. 

**It all comes down to accepting your choices. Some women choose to have sex unprotected when they are not ready to have a child. That wasn't the right choice, but abortion is not an answer. It doesn't make it all go away.** 
First of all I know lots of women who got pregnant in spite of precautions. Including myself and my mother. Abortion is not always the right choice. HOwever it is up to the woman to decide that for herself. 

Oh, and I would like to thank you, you have been very polite and avoided resorting to rhetoric. It's good to be reminded that not all pro-lifers are creeps.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 9:23 am  
To:  Kowgal   (72 of 140)  
 
  388.72 in reply to 388.70  
 
It becomes a person at birth, or possibly shortly before or after. 
If you had had an abortion your daughter would never have existed, just as if you had never met her father. The soul may have incarnated into a different body, but the experiences would have caused her to be a different person.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/7/2002 10:27 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (73 of 140)  
 
  388.73 in reply to 388.71  
 
I know that I gave up lots of things to have my child. The key to being happy is to not dwell on what "could have been" or "should have been", but what is. You can't change the past. And most of the time if you really think about it you wouldn't want to. 
Do you accept abortion as a form of birth control? I know most don't which is kinda hypocritical. (IMO) 

I don't want to get too personal and if you don't want to tell me I understand, but did you and your mother both have abortions? 

I try not to get too emotional over the issue. I kinda know that you have your mind set and I have mine. I really don't think that one or the other is going to change just based on this conversation, but somewhere or sometime what we say here could make a difference to someone. Kinda a long shot, but I think it's worth it. 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/7/2002 10:46 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (74 of 140)  
 
  388.74 in reply to 388.72  
 
Ravenotani,

<<The soul may have incarnated into a different body, but the experiences would have caused her to be a different person.>>

You really are reaching for any and every attempt to legitimize the ending of the life of the baby in the womb.

You have no idea about the soul or the spirit of a person, no human does. We have to rely on what God tells us.

First God tells us that He is the Father or our Spirit, even though we have physical mothers and fathers our spirit is from God.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.

Second after death, including death in the womb a person goes directly into the presence of God to either be received by God or to be sent away from God.

2 Corinthians 5:7-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (physical body), we are absent from the Lord: For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And if you are wondering if those who support abortion get to remain in the presence of God consider this.

Galatians 5:19-23 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law..

Revelation 21:8,9 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and  idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

Abortion really is about more than tissue, arguments and excuses. It is about Life and Death and about Salvation and Eternity it is literally about Heaven and Hell.

 

You can make up any excuse that you want to but it doesnt make it right and disagreeing with God doesnt make him or his ways go away.

 

God Loves you and we love you that is why we are spending our time pleading with you to consider the broad ramifications of the actions of abortion both to the body and to the soul.

 

I really dont give any credibility to any  pro-choice rantings because I know that it is talking out of a fit of rage. I am confident that you and many other Pro-Chiocers will in compassion and for the love of life seek God and that you will find Him and then you will know the True meaning of life and will no longer be willing to destroy life but you will desire to defend protect and save life.

 

All the Best to you, 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 2:07 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (75 of 140)  
 
  388.75 in reply to 388.73  
 
**Do you accept abortion as a form of birth control? I know most don't which is kinda hypocritical. (IMO)** 
Abortion is a form of birth control. However I don't think it should be the primary one, because even a terminated pregnancy is hard on a wooman's body. 

**I don't want to get too personal and if you don't want to tell me I understand, but did you and your mother both have abortions?** 

That's not too personal. I don't know if my mother had any abortions before she got pregnant with my older brother, but I don't think so. I have never had an abortion. 

**I try not to get too emotional over the issue. I kinda know that you have your mind set and I have mine. I really don't think that one or the other is going to change just based on this conversation, but somewhere or sometime what we say here could make a difference to someone. Kinda a long shot, but I think it's worth it.** 

Yeah, this debate probably won't result in either of us changing our minds, but someone who is sitting on the fence might get that piece of information which convinces them one way or the other. 
I also like to question my beliefs. If you're not willing to question you're beliefs once in a while you never grow spiritually.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 2:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (76 of 140)  
 
  388.76 in reply to 388.74  
 
I am not talking in a fit of rage. I have given this subject a lot of thought. 
I don't feel a fetus has the right to demand a woman's bodily resources. The only way to stop it is to kill it. It isn't a person, so why should there be any guilt attached?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/7/2002 3:39 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (77 of 140)  
 
  388.77 in reply to 388.76  
 
Hi Ravenotani,

 

I hope that you will continue to give this topic some more thought because if taking up resources is a crime fit for death we are all guilty in that we are all taking up resources. 

 

If someone breathes your air, drinks your water, lives in the space where you want to live, has money, the career, the relationship, or an opinion different than yours do these crimes also rate the death penalty?

 

You know pregnancy is only temporary.

 

All the Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/7/2002 7:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (78 of 140)  
 
  388.78 in reply to 388.77  
 
**I hope that you will continue to give this topic some more thought because if taking up resources is a crime fit for death we are all guilty in that we are all taking up resources.** 
It is about far more than simple use of resources. 

**If someone breathes your air, drinks your water, lives in the space where you want to live, has money, the career, the relationship, or an opinion different than yours do these crimes also rate the death penalty?** 
Irrelivent. We aren't even talking about a person here. 
Additionally we aren't talking about resources which aren't rightfully the woman's in question. Killing people is not justified in order to gain something you want. 

**You know pregnancy is only temporary.** 
If a man tries to rape me, to use my body against my will, should I refuse to take the necesary steps to stop him because 'it's only temporary'? 
Anyone, or anything, using my body against my will may be removed by whatever means necesary.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/8/2002 1:02 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (79 of 140)  
 
  388.79 in reply to 388.78  
 
Ravenotani,

 

Rape and Abortion are both tragic events and they are both unnecessary and both should be illegal.

 

You want to be protected and kept safe from the danger and harm of a rape and likewise the baby in a womb needs to be kept safe from the danger and harm of an abortion.

 

Why is ok for you to remain safe but babies cannot receive the same protection that you demand?

 

You are great at throwing around one-liners on this topic as though life has no meaning i.e. a cow and  baby are the same thing. Your advise that committing an abortion is an act with no consequences either physically, emotionally or spiritually is bad, your reasoning is terrible, you are advocating that people and women in particular do harmful and hurtful things, things that are irrevocable and again all with quaint little one-liners.

 

Im sure your not there to comfort a woman after the abortion doctor has punctured her abdomen and she now has an infection, Im sure you offer no aid and comfort to women who realize that they have just done a terrible thing in ending their pregnancy, and you attitude is beyond snobbish making your words empty and meaningless.

 

David

 



David A. Brown
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   From:  123four   6/8/2002 3:02 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (80 of 140)  
 
  388.80 in reply to 388.29  
 
Me thinks thou doth protest tooooooo much! 
  
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From:  123four   6/8/2002 3:03 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (81 of 140)  
 
  388.81 in reply to 388.34  
 
God will forgive you....if you ask...even of abortion. 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/8/2002 6:10 pm  
To:  123four   (82 of 140)  
 
  388.82 in reply to 388.81  
 
I neither want nor need your forgiveness. Are you god?
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/8/2002 6:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (83 of 140)  
 
  388.83 in reply to 388.79  
 
Show me where I said a cow and a baby are the same thing? 
You consider me evil because I believe women should be allowed to decide for themself if they wish to gestate. Why should a woman be a slave to a fetus? 

A fetus is not a person, get over it.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/8/2002 6:55 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (84 of 140)  
 
  388.84 in reply to 388.82  
 
No, I am not God, but I know Him. Did you know that God will forgive you of any sin that you have done? If you will get forgiveness from Him and receive Him as Lord, then you will have great peace within you.  
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/10/2002 7:02 am  
To:  123four   (85 of 140)  
 
  388.85 in reply to 388.84  
 
**No, I am not God, but I know Him. Did you know that God will forgive you of any sin that you have done? If you will get forgiveness from Him and receive Him as Lord, then you will have great peace within you.** 
The God I know is pro-choice. 

When I think of the people I know who have found inner peace, they are all pro-choice. They don't judge people and they each have a strong social conscience. 

And one of them is a Buddhist.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/10/2002 8:48 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (86 of 140)  
 
  388.86 in reply to 388.85  
 
Yeah, pro-choice- the acceptance and support of murdering innocent babies in the Mothers womb is the answer to all of lifes contentments, mysteries and problems.

 

You dont judge people, unless of course those people happen to be helpless and defenseless and then you harshly judge them unworthy of life and readily seek their death and destruction.

 

You can keep selling, but no one is buying!

  

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/10/2002 10:13 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (87 of 140)  
 
  388.87 in reply to 388.86  
 
**Yeah, pro-choice- the acceptance and support of murdering innocent babies in the Mothers womb is the answer to all of lifes contentments, mysteries and problems.** 
I would find this funny if I didn't realise you actually believe this twitiocy! I have yet to meet a prochoicer who thinks abortion is the solution to all life's problems. 

**You dont judge people, unless of course those people happen to be helpless and defenseless and then you harshly judge them unworthy of life and readily seek their death and destruction** 

On the contrary, I have never judged a fetus as a person, because it isn't a person. Neither do I think all fetuses should be aborted. It is up to the pregnant woman to decide if she wants an abortion or not. Simple, fair, just.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/10/2002 7:20 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (88 of 140)  
 
  388.88 in reply to 388.85  
 
We cannot but tell you the TRUTH..which is God and the scriptures. 
All decisions are entirely up to you, of course. 
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/11/2002 9:35 am  
To:  123four   (89 of 140)  
 
  388.89 in reply to 388.88  
 
Your point?
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/11/2002 10:38 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (90 of 140)  
 
  388.90 in reply to 388.89  
 
Her point is easy enough to grasp and that is that God Loves You personally just as much as He personally loves every baby in the womb.

 

I have been thinking about this string and your postings and one of the things that really keeps jumping out at me is your willingness to Reject the life of another human being. Everyone has been rejected at one time or another whether it was for a job, by a friend, a  relationship or even a family member. Rejection has to be the worst that can happen to a person and abortion is rejection to the extreme in that you are even rejecting the humanity of the person you are rejecting.

 

God Himself knows rejection well. Jesus was rejected by many people and in fact many people are still rejecting Him today.

 

Isaiah calls Jesus a man of rejection a man sorrows.

 

Aborted babies and Jesus are going to get along just fine in heaven. Heaven the place where there is no longer rejection but acceptance.

 

Just as serious as abortion is, is the Rejection of Jesus, because like abortion rejecting the humanity of the baby in rejecting Jesus you are rejecting the Deity, the very essence and nature of God.

 

You seem to have some real Rejection issues in your life. Maybe you have suffered from rejection yourself like we all have but rejecting others and rejecting God is not the way to handle our rejections.

 

As she said in her post Jesus is not rejecting you or anyone else He is available to you with His arms wide open.

 

I hope that you find a friend in Jesus. He is a friend indeed to those of us in need.

 

All The Best to you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/11/2002 11:19 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (91 of 140)  
 
  388.91 in reply to 388.90  
 
I don't reject Jesus. What makes you think I do? 
I embrace the right of women to self determination. I do not grant anything the right to use a woman's body against her will.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  kfander    6/11/2002 11:39 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (92 of 140)  
 
  388.92 in reply to 388.85  
 
>> The God I know is pro-choice <<

I think this is a Christian forum, though.

>> They don't judge people <<

That's a big problem. Too many people today are lacking in judgement.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/11/2002 2:41:46 PM ET by kfander 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/11/2002 12:49 pm  
To:  kfander    (93 of 140)  
 
  388.93 in reply to 388.92  
 
Hi Kfander,

 

Good points!

 

We do need to Judge.

 

Judging is how we discern between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, and even Life and Death.

 

And yes it is becoming my opinion more and more that unless you are Pro-Choice and a Creationist vs. an evolutionist you cannot be a Christian.

 

My current daily devotions are long reads through each of the New Testament letters like 1st & 2nd Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews etc. And I have been reading them with that thought in mind and have really reached the conclusion that unless you acknowledge that God Is the God of Life than you do not have the Same Faith that Abraham has and are Not like Abraham and are not a child of God like Abraham is, also if you do not embrace Creation than how can God be your Father as there is no chance of randomly evolving into the Image of God (there is no chance for evolution anyhow but that is a different topic). To have God as a Father means to be specifically created in Gods Image, created in the womb by the loving, creating, life giving God.

 

We do allow far too much to be called Christian!

 

God Bless You,

Thank you for your discernment!

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Watchman77    6/11/2002 4:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (94 of 140)  
 
  388.94 in reply to 388.90  
 
amen and amen!
             

point cursor at doves beak to see what she has to say


Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/11/2002 4:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (95 of 140)  
 
  388.95 in reply to 388.93  
 
amen and amen again... well said!
             

point cursor at doves beak to see what she has to say


Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  NRAdittos    6/12/2002 6:22 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (96 of 140)  
 
  388.96 in reply to 388.38  
 
RAVEN,

I've read your post in this thread and by your own logic of no ability to think, you have condemned yourself.  Either you refuse the reason with others or lack the ability of cognitive reasoning which would make you "not a person" or the cow you mentioned.   

I have no intention of being rude but you may want to reconsider you course of argument to support your premise.  

BTW: where do you get this stuff about no brain before 24 weeks in utero...? Another obvious flaw you insist on repeating.

Quit while you're waaaaaaaaay behind!!!

NRAdittos
 
  
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  From:  cassa_1    6/12/2002 5:12 pm  
To:  ALL   (97 of 140)  
 
  388.97 in reply to 388.96  
 
To answer a question that has been coming up:

8 weeks - The unborn child, called a fetus (Greek for little one) at this stage, is about half an inch long. The tiny person is protected by the amnionic sac, filled with fluid. Inside, the child swims and moves gracefully. The arms and legs have lengthened, and fingers can be seen. The toes will develop in the next few days. Brain waves can be measured. 

From http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal1.html

Another resource I'd seen (don't have it on hand) quoted 9-12 weeks.  

Next mood swing: 6 minutes.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/12/2002 8:14:00 PM ET by cassa (CASSA_1) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2002 7:37 am  
To:  cassa_1    (98 of 140)  
 
  388.98 in reply to 388.97  
 
Hi Cassa,

 

Thank you for posting the very informative link!

 

And Excellent idea, we should start a topic with photos and resources of fetal development.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/13/2002 4:26 pm  
To:  NRAdittos    (99 of 140)  
 
  388.99 in reply to 388.96  
 

http://www.brain-mind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html 
"It is evident that the fetus is capable of considerable behavioral complexity. These complex actions appear to be mediated and governed by the brainstem with minimal forebrain participation, for similar behaviors are demonstrated by anencephalics and following forebrain destruction. However, although forebrain influences are minimal, the late-term fetal brainstem may also be capable of experienced-induced synaptic plasticity, and can become organized to respond selectively to certain auditory stimuli presented up to 6 weeks before birth. These latter findings could be interpreted as evidence for exceedingly rudimentary, learning-related cognitive-like activity. 

Nevertheless, the fetus and neonate appears incapable of thinking, reasoning, understanding, comprehending, or experiencing or generating "true" emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity. Rather, although capable of learning, the increasingly complex behaviors demonstrated by the fetus and neonate, including head turning, eye movements, startle reactions, crying, screaming, and rudimentary smiling, are probably best described as brainstem reflexes." 

Instinctive reflexes do not a person make.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2002 12:47 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (100 of 140)  
 
  388.100 in reply to 388.99  
 
Instinctive reflexes do not a person make.

 

Why Not?

 

You have no REAL clue as to what the baby is actually thinking feeling and doing.

 

Best to let the Living LIVE!!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/14/2002 9:54 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (101 of 140)  
 
  388.101 in reply to 388.100  
 
If I were to just let the living live I couldn't eat meat or take antibiotics.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2002 3:31 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (102 of 140)  
 
  388.102 in reply to 388.101  
 
I know that you are going back to your humans are animals stance but its too bad that you have to think that about babies.

 

Every Crime, Genocide and Holocaust begins with dehumanizing the Enemy and it looks like you are well down that path.

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  kfander    6/14/2002 5:10 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (103 of 140)  
 
  388.103 in reply to 388.99  
 
>> Nevertheless, the fetus and neonate appears incapable of thinking, reasoning, understanding, comprehending, or experiencing or generating "true" emotion or any semblance of higher order <<

That would describe most of the MTV generation.

Oh, and when they say "appears incapable," what do they mean?
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/14/2002 6:24 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (104 of 140)  
 
  388.104 in reply to 388.102  
 
I don't consider fetuses to be an enemy anymore than I consider rats to be an enemy.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/14/2002 8:11 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (105 of 140)  
 
  388.105 in reply to 388.104  
 
When you seek God with your whole heart, you will find Him. 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/15/2002 12:16 pm  
To:  123four   (106 of 140)  
 
  388.106 in reply to 388.105  
 
**When you seek God with your whole heart, you will find Him.** 
What an interesting nonsequiter. How do you know I heven't sought God with my whole heart?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/15/2002 2:51 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (107 of 140)  
 
  388.107 in reply to 388.106  
 
I know it because the scripture says that if you do seek God with your whole heart that you will find Him. With you still maintaining that God's Word is of no consequence as far as abortion goes, then I know that you do not know Him.  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/16/2002 3:27 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (108 of 140)  
 
  388.108 in reply to 388.106  
 
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. 
             

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Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/16/2002 5:31:03 PM ET by Watchman77 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/16/2002 2:53 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (109 of 140)  
 
  388.109 in reply to 388.108  
 
You claim to know what is in my heart? 
What arogance! 

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/16/2002 3:00 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (110 of 140)  
 
  388.110 in reply to 388.109  
 
***You claim to know what is in my heart? 
What arogance!***

no I don't claim any such thing, I don't know your heart... but God does... all I was doing was showing how we must worship God. There is only one true way to worship God, all other are vain worship and unacceptable to Him...

             

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Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/16/2002 3:01 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (111 of 140)  
 
  388.111 in reply to 388.110  
 
Do you have a point? 
God knows what is in my heart and I have no fear about being judged on that basis. Are you afraid?
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/17/2002 5:43 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (112 of 140)  
 
  388.112 in reply to 388.111  
 
Have you been washed in the blood of the Lamb? 
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/17/2002 11:12 am  
To:  123four   (113 of 140)  
 
  388.113 in reply to 388.112  
 
As I said, I have nothing to fear from God.
~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2002 2:28 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (114 of 140)  
 
  388.114 in reply to 388.109  
 
You claim to know the heart (Soul) of every single child in the womb and yet you condemn them.

 

Again you demand that no one condemn you not even God Himself yet you are all condemnation for those who do not meet your approval.

 

You are full of contradictions and double standards and dont lay any claims on Heaven because Heaven belongs to the innocent, to the ones clean and washed in the blood of Jesus, like the babies in the womb, and not the guilty who are so full of pride that they kill the unborn!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/17/2002 2:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (115 of 140)  
 
  388.115 in reply to 388.114  
 
I see no reason to fear god. Does that threated you? If so, why? 
I claim only to know my own heart. It is you who wants to tell women what they must do with their bodies. Not me. 

All the evidence shows a fetus is not a person. Why then should it get any rights? 

I don't have any double standards. What makes you think I do?

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2002 2:38 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (116 of 140)  
 
  388.116 in reply to 388.115  
 
I think that you dont fear God because you dont really believe in God and dont respect God if you did you would know that God is the creator of life and that Abortion is a Sin and is wrong and then you would have much fear of your actions and intentions.

 

And no nothing you say or do threatens me because Im not a helpless baby in the womb. I know that bullies like you only pick on people that are defenseless.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/17/2002 8:00 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (117 of 140)  
 
  388.117 in reply to 388.116  
 
I don't fear God because there is nothing to fear from someone who truly loves you. 
I am not a bully. I don't threaten people to get them to do what I want. The closest I come to being a bully is being a parent. 

If it's in the womb it's not a baby.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    6/18/2002 3:26 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   (118 of 140)  
 
  388.118 in reply to 388.115  
 
***All the evidence shows a fetus is not a person. Why then should it get any rights? ***

and what "evidence" shows that an unborn baby is not a person? Our constitution guarantees... the right to LIFE, liberty and the persuit of happiness... so abortion is denying one of the basic fundamental rights of the constitution...

             

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Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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  From:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani)   6/18/2002 3:29 am  
To:  Watchman77    (119 of 140)  
 
  388.119 in reply to 388.118  
 
**and what "evidence" shows that an unborn baby is not a person** 
Absense of brainwaves.

~~
Saint Raven, Matron Saint of Accidentally Bleached Leather Undergarments. 
Member in good sitting of the Pink Panty Brigade, Leather Division 
 
  
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   From:  Watchman77    6/18/2002 4:00 am  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani) unread  (120 of 140)  
 
  388.120 in reply to 388.119  
 
http://www.unborn.com/window/womb1.htm

 


(791K)
 
At seven weeks, I can magnify the image so you can clearly see the arms and legs and the head. Seven weeks is the time that we first visualize movement. 

Did you also know that brain waves can be detected just 40 days after conception and that the genetic blueprint that determines every detail of human development such as sex, height and eye color existed at the moment of conception?
 
        
 
     
  

 

Last revised: October 25, 1999

COPYRIGHT  1996 - 1997, Sound Wave Images, Inc.
 
 
 

             

point cursor at doves beak to see what she has to say


Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11
 
  
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From:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   6/21/2002 12:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (121 of 140)  
 
  388.121 in reply to 388.116  
 
David 
Can I ask you a question? 
I had an abortion 10 years ago. 
While I have suffered mental anguish ever since, 
I have asked God over and over for forgiveness. 
It makes me so heartsick to know what I did. 
It was horrible, and I would give anything to 
take it back. 

I have been told I only had to ask God ONCE to 
forgive me, and I believe that. 
My question is this... Why can't I forgive myself? 
Or rather, what can I do for relief? 
I have prayed for answers, and feel the closest 
possible thing I received to an answer was to 
witness to women who were considering it, 
begging them PLEASE not to do it. 

I think I posted this in the appropriate forum, 
because at one time, I thought i WAS pro-choice. 
God is the one who should be making the choice. 
We are NOT qualified. 

(And for the record, I was married, and on birth 
control when I conceived, and the decision was 
made WITH my husband... even though it was wrong.) 

I'm not a saint (only One was made perfect), 
but I AM repentant. 

May God Bless All Who Reads This.
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/22/2002 1:10 am  
To:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   (122 of 140)  
 
  388.122 in reply to 388.121  
 
God Bless YOU, Cajun! God does know your heart. You know, all of us Christians have sinned even after we came to know Jesus. I know it is easier to forgive anothr than to forgive ourselves!!! Much easier. 
We become angry at ourselves when we sin, no matter what the sin is. 
We want to beat ourselves over the head with it, never letting it go. 
However, this is not God's way of doing things. :) We want to do this God's way, and it will please Him. The scripture commands us (not an option) to love our neighbors as we love ourselves!!! hmmmm 
then This means we must love ourselves. Love does forgive! True love forgives!!! Just as God forgives us, we must forgive others and ourselves. 

Consider that you are a part of the very body of Jesus!!!! If you do not forgive yourself, then, in fact, you are holding this one thing against Jesus himself. We are the only body Jesus has....us believers. 
We do not want to do anythng aginst Him, do we? No. If you do it to yourself, then you are doing it to Jesus. 

When Saul was killing the ChristiaNS ANd Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, Jesus asked Saul, "Why do you do this to ME"? 
Now, it was the body of Christ that Saul was persecuting. But now, 
Jesus knew that these Christians were the only body He had, and so Jesus saw it as persecution of HIMSELF!!! Which is what it was. 

So, what I am trying to say is, you are persecuting Jesus by not forgiving yourself. He has forgotten about it....it's a done deal 
on his part. It's ok to love yourself and forgive yourself. 

God's blessings upon you!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/22/2002 1:37 am  
To:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   (123 of 140)  
 
  388.123 in reply to 388.122  
 
Hi,

 

Thank you for your bold post. Im sure that many will gain comfort and support from knowing that God loves us and does forgive us of all of our sins and transgressions.

 

As far as asking God only once for forgiveness for a specific event I would say that you need to talk to God and ask God for His forgiveness as often as you need to do it. True God showed us on the cross that He has forgiven all of our sins but we still need to say it, confess it and work through it with God.

 

Jesus Himself prayed three times to not go to the cross and the Apostle Paul prayed three time to have one of Satans tormenters removed, so asking more than once does not seem to be a problem.

 

As far as I know God loves us so much that He just likes to hear us acknowledge Him and talk to Him no matter what it is about.

 

This is one of my favorite verses regarding abortion.

 

Revelation 1:18 I (Jesus) am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

There is so much comfort to be derived from the fact that Jesus Himself  has overcome death and that Jesus holds the keys to life and salvation.

 

Jesus is our only hope for life and I agree with you that He is hope enough!

 

God Bless You,

Your Brother in Jesus,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   6/22/2002 7:04 am  
To:  123four   (124 of 140)  
 
  388.124 in reply to 388.122  
 
WOW! 
Your words have really touched my heart today. I had never looked at it that way, and yes, you are right. I KNOW I have to forgive myself, and honestly..... I have received grace to put it behind me MOST of the time. It is when I delve into the subject of abortion, or have it presented to me that I feel so strongly about it. I want to help counsel those who are CONSIDERING abortion as an option, as well as those who have already gone through with it, and feel such remorse. 
Funny you would mention one of my father's favorite verses "love thy neighbor as thy love thyself." I had actually never turned that one around (looked in the mirror ; ) Thank you! 

I want to add that God's grace is a beautiful gift, and I have received it MANY times in my life. He has truly blessed me and I know it well. 

I feel washed in the blood of the Lamb, and I know my sin is forgiven, and I am truly repentant of it. I have three children, and shower them with love, and am teaching them to live with Christ. 

Every day I am stronger, and KNOW His love in so many areas of my life. 

May God bless you and David this day, and always. 

~ Cajun2 ><>
 
  
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  From:  123four   6/22/2002 7:19 am  
To:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   (125 of 140)  
 
  388.125 in reply to 388.124  
 
When you hug yourself today, you are hugging Him. 
God Bless You.....have a wonderful day! 
 
  
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  From:  Kowgal   6/23/2002 6:15 am  
To:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   (126 of 140)  
 
  388.126 in reply to 388.124  
 
Our pastor preached a message on change (well several) and one thing he mentioned is that sometimes guilt keeps us from allowing God to make changes in us. It isn't God wanting us to feel guilty; he has forgotten our sins as soon as we ask forgivness. It's Satan using our past to stumble our walk with God. It's a powerful weapon, but one we can't allow to be used against us. Your past is the past. You can't change it. The only thing you can change is your future. Give it to God and allow Him to take over and make something great out of it.  
  
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  From:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC)   6/23/2002 4:34 pm  
To:  Kowgal   (127 of 140)  
 
  388.127 in reply to 388.126  
 
Again, WOW! 
I'm so encouraged by what you all have said in reply to my original message. You are so right ~ about it being Satan using it against me, to affect my walk with God. I have been able to discern MANY times when Satan is trying to get into my head, and can usually banish him (with a prayer, but typically with laughter when I KNOW it is the devil ~ hehehe). But this one area has been a real weakness for me, because I would so love to change that decision I made. 

But now when I pray about it, I have been asking God to help me forgive myself. And I look forward to the day I am reunited with my child. We know he or she is in heaven already, and when I am returned to God, I will be with my baby. 

And I do firmly believe that with any sin, even the ones we feel are most defiant of God's law (like adultery), when we ask we are forgiven, and that we turn from sin is what he asks of us. 

Ezekial said "Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourself of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit." Eze. 18:30-31 

And from Isaiah "In repentance and rest is your salvation,in quietness and trust is your strength" Isa. 30:15 

(I am new at quoting scripture, but I am eagerly learning the bible now. I just bought a study bible for my birthday and am learning SO much I didn't even know was there! It's incredible!!) 

Thank you again for your encouragement. 
It is very much appreciated. 

Your sister in Christ, 
~ Cajun2 

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 5:46 pm  
To:  the ONLY Cajun2 (Cajun2FC) unread  (128 of 140)  
 
  388.128 in reply to 388.121  
 
Hi, 
I'm sorry you had an abortion. I did, too. It is a horrendous thing to think of, when you're faced with the depths of the truth. 

That said, I was doing some reading recently and came across something very simple we can all do. It's praying and asking Jesus Christ to come and show us what is in our hearts about things from our past. This simple thing can release us completely from the 'ties that bind' our souls in a knot every time we turn around. We ARE forgiven for all of our sins when we ask...sometimes we need to have more than just head knowledge...and allow the Spirit of the Living God come SHOW us in our spirits what forgiveness looks like...and be released, once and for all. 

So, you might do this: In prayer, allow Jesus Christ...the Son of God...to come in His Spirit to show you what is in your heart concerning this murder of your baby. Let Him show you His truth on the matter. [also, some say we should use the formal name of Jesus Christ so that anything demonic will not try to foist thoughts in that have nothing to do with the truth.] 

The author I was reading says there is no Scriptural cause to 'forgive yourself.' He says that it is when the Spirit of God comes in and gives us HIS truth...the shame and guilt will go away, because we will be hearing from Him...in our spirit. [I've always heard that we must 'forgive ourselves' and have had a definite problem with this in many instances--of not being 'able' to. So, this 'technique,' if you will, may be just what the Doctor ordered to get permanent results of freedom from the 'guilt' of sin that has already been acknowledged and repented of. 

It's so simple and doesn't involved eons of therapy to figure out 'why do I feel this way. God knows why...let's ask HIM! :) [I am not saying we should NEVER ask for counseling help...just that this seems a plausible way to get free from those things that hammer us relentlessly year after year. (that is...from sin that we've repented of and asked forgiveness for, etc.) ] 

It is MORE than 'logical' knowledge that we need--[the author says], because we can be told a zillion times that we've been forgiven and still not apprehend it somehow. We can SEE it in God's Word that He forgives us when we repent and ASK for forgiveness. 

My thought on this is: If we still have shame and guilt and agony over a past sin, there MUST be a reason for it. [IMO, it's not ALWAYS the Accuser attacking our minds--though of course, it is sometimes] IMO, it may be that deep inside we cannot believe that we 'deserve' forgiveness for our atrocious sin--[which none of us 'deserves' anything]. God will, through His Spirit come and show you His truth and release you from this. 

Amy 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 7/11/2002 9:04:32 PM ET by AMY (AMYM38) 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/18/2002 11:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (129 of 140)  
 
  388.129 in reply to 388.28  
 
I dunno, David. We've got people out there with some mighty weird appetites, and some of them might just be perverted enough to eat a human fetus. I've heard of that going on in China, and it makes me want to gag every time I hear of it. 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/18/2002 11:52 pm  
To:  Demi Goth (RavenOtani) unread  (130 of 140)  
 
  388.130 in reply to 388.34  
 
What does the doctor tell you when you go to his/her office when you suspect that you might be pregnant? Doesn't the doctor confirm the pregnancy by saying, "Congratulations! You're going to have a baby" or does the doctor say, "Great news! You're going to have a fetus"? 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/19/2002 12:00 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (131 of 140)  
 
  388.131 in reply to 388.43  
 
You're right, HopeFloats. Abortion isn't going to make men any less likely to abuse women, unfortunately. In fact, it may make it even easier for men to become abusive or exploitative towards women because it has the effect of freeing especially predatory men from any responsibility they may have in the after-effects of sexual activity. Abortion is in reality a windfall for MEN, not women. I'm just sorry that the "pro-choicers" on this board can't see that. Or maybe they can and just don't want to think about it. 
  
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  From:  123four   7/19/2002 8:23 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (132 of 140)  
 
  388.132 in reply to 388.131  
 
You are right, I believe. For the ungodly men, abortion is a 'double portion'...they won't have the responsibility and they will not ever have to support that baby financially. No wonder they fight so for 'abortion rights'. 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/19/2002 10:47 pm  
To:  123four   (133 of 140)  
 
  388.133 in reply to 388.132  
 
Yeah, and to call this con a fight for a "woman's right to choose" is especially insulting, not only to the women and babies injured out there but also to the many responsible men who daily shoulder their responsibilities. 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    7/20/2002 3:42 am  
To:  Zebra30   (134 of 140)  
 
  388.134 in reply to 388.133  
 
*** not only to the women and babies injured out there but also to the many responsible men who daily shoulder their responsibilities.***

amen! if the truth be known, it is very likely that atleast one of the parents of the baby would prefer to keep it... I use to picket outside an abortuary and it was heartbreaking the things I saw there... girls literally being dragged by boyfriends and mothers into the place, and then there was this one time that I will never forget.... this girl had come in to have an abortion, and her boyfriend and his parents showed up.... their story was one of the saddest I have ever heard..

the boy was a christian who trusted in Jesus and was raised in a good christian family... he made a mistake and he wanted to take responsibility for it... his parents were more than willing to do whatever it took to help him in this... he wanted to marry the girl, but she did not want to get married... he told her he would support the baby and her in every way he could, but she didn't want to be a mother... so he and his parents told her they would take the baby and raise it completely by themselves... if she wanted to have anything to do with it she could, but she didn't have to.... finally they thought they had her convinced, but then one morning the boy showed up at school and she was not there, he asked one of her friends where she was and they told him... he and his parents rushed down to the abortuary to try to stop the abortion, but when they got there they were not allowed to talk to the girl... the police were called to keep them out of the abortuary and the girl had the abortion.... they stood out their pleading for the life of this child with several of us praying with them.... this was not an unwanted child, this child was loved very much and would have had a family that would have raised it up in the love of God.... I often think of this family and pray that their pain has lessened over the years and that God has blessed them with many children and grandchildren....

              

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Watchman77
 http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 

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Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

http://www.grassfire.net/16/petition.asp?PID=2287828&P=1

petition to stop internet porn.

 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/20/2002 1:47 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (135 of 140)  
 
  388.135 in reply to 388.131  
 
Yes, men (fathers) have embraced abortion..it's not just a wowmen's issue. And sad to say men are supposed to protect women and children. a pregnant women is so vulnerable but often is fed to the wolves when it is a 'crisis' pregnancy. 

So sad and such a vivid picture of our sin fallen world. pregnant women and babies cast aside like trash. 

Linda 
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/20/2002 4:51 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (136 of 140)  
 
  388.136 in reply to 388.135  
 
It's a sign of the times, unfortunately. 
  
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  From:  CRAW (FREDCDOBBS99)   7/24/2002 8:11 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (137 of 140)  
 
  388.137 in reply to 388.135  
 
Hope>>Yes, men (fathers) have embraced abortion..it's not just a wowmen's issue<< 
Yes, and I'm sure you would cheer a mans wish if his wife and/or sifnificant other wanted an abortion and he wanted to force her to carry to term. 

It is a matter of concern to all, but since the woman is the one who becomes pregnant, the Choice to abort or carry to term should remain solidly with her !! 

CRAW 


PRO CHOICE PRO AMERICA PRO WOMAN ANTI SUPERSTITION 
  
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  From:  Bobs New Babe!! (WPJSGAL)   8/3/2002 1:35 am  
To:  Zebra30   (138 of 140)  
 
  388.138 in reply to 388.129  
 
>>I've heard of that going on in China<< 
Bunk. http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/fetus.htm
 
  
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  From:  Bobs New Babe!! (WPJSGAL)   8/3/2002 1:37 am  
To:  Zebra30   (139 of 140)  
 
  388.139 in reply to 388.130  
 
>>"Congratulations! You're going to have a baby"<< 
EXACTLY!! You got it right! She's GOING to have a baby. In 7 or 8 months. She doesn't have one THEN. 
 
  
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   From:  Zebra30   8/3/2002 5:46 pm  
To:  Bobs New Babe!! (WPJSGAL)   (140 of 140)  
 
  388.140 in reply to 388.139  
 
Then what does she have inside of her, ma'am? A turnip? Look, obviously you'd much rather believe an outright lie than to believe the truth that's in front of you because the lie is so much more appealing and it fits more readily into your fleshly agenda. And since this is the case, obviously I'm not going to change your mind or even try to change it because I'd only be wasting my breath. So, you just keep on living in your little dream world and I'll keep living in the real one. P.S. By the way, do you understand what the word fetus actually means? It merely means the unborn young of vertebrate mammals. Oh, but you probably don't even care. No, let me re-phrase that: YOU DON'T CARE! 
  
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